Why I’m Walking
On April 15th 2010, I will commence a walk from Australia’s Parliament House to Mount Kosciousko. Below I explain how this event came about. Though it has been triggered by me losing one part of a two-part bet on house prices, its genesis goes back much further–to when I, along with a handful of other non-orthodox economists, predicted that a serious financial crisis was just around the corner.
The cause, as always, would be the bursting of a debt bubble. The reason why I saw it coming, while the vast majority of economists did not, is because my approach to economics emphasises the importance of credit and debt. In contrast, conventional “neoclassical” economics ignores both credit and debt.
The bubbles in Australia and the USA were clearly the biggest in post-WWII history. The ratio of debt to GDP had risen fivefold since the 1960s in Australia, and since 1945 in the USA.
Bubbles that were that big, and growing that rapidly, had to burst–as had previous bubbles in the mid-1970s and the 1990s. When they did, an economic crisis would ensue. Because debt levels were so much higher than in the 70s and 90s, the crisis this time would be much larger.
The world escaped those previous crises by piling on yet more debt in yet another speculative bubble. But this time the debt was so much larger that the “borrow our way out of trouble” remedy was unlikely to work again. We faced a serious economic crisis for which there was no easy cure, and yet conventional economists and the politicians they advised had no idea it was approaching.
I decided to raise the alarm, and took the highly unusual step (for an academic) of engaging in public debate on economic policy. From December 2005 on, I spoke frequently to the media about the dangers of excessive private debt and the likelihood of a serious economic crisis (see for example AM August 2006 and Lateline November 2006); in November 2006 I established a monthly newsletter (“DebtWatch”), which was mailed to about 400 people (mainly journalists) just before the RBA’s monthly meetings to set interest rates; and in March 2007 I started the blog Steve Keen’s Debtwatch.
The crisis that I warned about finally arrived in 2007, and became acute in 2008. The exponential increase in debt that had fuelled the false boom since the end of the 1990s recession reversed, and the Global Financial Crisis began.
A collapse in house prices in the USA was an integral part of the crisis there, and inevitably I was asked what would happen to Australian house prices if my prediction of debt-induced economic crisis here came true.
I commented, on a number of occasions, that house prices in Japan had fallen 40% over since their Bubble Economy burst in 1990, and I saw no reason why we should be any different over much the same time frame of ten to fifteen years.
I didn’t think particularly much about that question at the time, since to me the main game has always been the debt bubble, and property prices are a side effect to that–an important issue, but ancillary to the main problem of allowing economic performance to be dominated by rising debt.
There I have to confess to being somewhat naïve: I was not prepared for the onslaught from vested interests which that comment would evoke. Predict a financial crisis unlike any other, warn that economic policy was headed in the wrong direction, challenge the merit of conventional economic theory, and (before the GFC) you’ re still largely ignored. But claim that house prices might fall, and you stir up a hornet’s nest.
Shortly after I made that statement, the Government introduced the so-called “First Home Owners Boost”.
I had advised against such policies before the crisis hit:
“Debt has reached unsustainable levels, and whether its reduction is done smoothly or abruptly, economic growth has to slow in the meantime… In this situation, doing anything–like … increasing subsidies to home buyers (as happened in 1991 with the doubling of the First Home Buyers’ grant)–will be worse than doing nothing at all.” (Debtwatch November 2006, p. 18)
And I railed against the Boost when it was announced (see Rescuing the Economy or the Bubble?), arguing that it would simply cause a house price bubble and a larger bust in the future:
Many elements of the recently announced package are justified… But yet another increase to the First Home Buyers Grant??? Is this because, um, house prices are, like, maybe too low? A collapsing housing bubble may be a scary prospect, but the more it is inflated, the scarier the final bust…
Then in October 2008, I gave a talk at the Parliament House Library to an audience of about 80 people–mainly researchers and Ministerial support staff. On the same bill was Macquarie Bank’s “Interest Rate Strategist” Rory Robertson, whom I had never met. Rory put the bet to me during his speech (PDF slides here). I hadn’t referred at all to property prices in my talk (Powerpoint slides here), since I saw them as a sideshow to the overall debt crisis, but Rory argued that this was the point of interest to the many in the audience. Paraphrasing and editing him slightly, Rory introduced the bet this way (at the 37 minute point in this recording):
“I think some people came along today to hear about why house prices are going to fall 40%… [I interject "over a 10-15 year time frame mate" at this point]. In the spirit of competition, … if Australian house prices fall from peak to trough by 40% I will walk from Canberra to the peak of Mt Kosciousko, and if in fact they fall by less than 20%, you do.”
With no warning of the bet, and in front of such an audience, I agreed to the bet. But a bet that was going to be live until roughly 2025–since that was my time frame for the fall–was hardly interesting, so in subsequent discussions we also agreed to a “closure” term: if house prices were higher than their September 2008 level a year later, I would walk.
It’s hard to remember, but at the time I think I expected that the First Home Owners Boost–which was supposed to expire in June 2009–wouldn’t have enough impact to push prices above their September 2008 peak. So I agreed to the bet, without any caveat about waiting until the government’s attempt to stop house prices from falling was over.
Then in May 2009, the Government announced that they were going to extend the scheme for another six months–and I knew that I was sunk. The house bubble bubble that The Boost caused not only stopped the fall in prices, but spiked them well above the previous peak.
This repeated the experience of the Howard Government in 2000 and 2001. Its introduction of the Grant–as a temporary(!) measure to alleviate the introduction of the GST on the building industry–and then its doubling as a stimulatory measure when a recession was feared in 2001, clearly spiked house prices. At the time prices had only just returned to the same level, relative to household disposable income, as they were in 1986. Within 3 years, they were 40% above this level. Though there are many factors behind this bubble–primarily the role of the finance sector as a promoter of speculative behaviour–Government policy was also complicit.
Rudd’s policy has clearly achieved the same result this time round. House prices, which had falling relative to household disposable incomes, rapidly shot up again (even though disposable incomes were also rising dramatically at the same time, courtesy of the stimulus measures and the 4% cut to the official interest rate). The economy also received a substantial boost, as the clear trend for mortgage debt to fall (relative to GDP) that had set in during 2008 went into reverse. This is both the reason for the success of the policy to date, and its Achilles Heel.
Without The Boost, the reduction in mortgage debt levels that was in train in late 2008 would have reduced expenditure in the economy by roughly 3% of GDP. Instead, the Boost enticed households into a dramatic 6% increase in mortgage debt during 2009. This effective 9% turnaround in debt levels is a major reason why Australia has avoided the worst consequences of the GFC to date.
The increase in debt was not limited to First Home Buyers. Certainly they levered the additional A$7,000 into A$30-50,000 of additional buying power, and bid up sub-$500K house prices by 5-10% as a result. But the vendors then took the additional $20-30,000 in cash that this higher sale price gave them, and levered that up to an additional $150-$200,000 for their next house purchase.
The Boost has also given Australia a dubious distinction when compared to the rest of the OECD. Yes, we are the only country that avoided a technical recession; but we are also the only country where debt levels are rising once more compared to GDP, rather than falling.
We have also experienced a faster turnaround in debt levels in this crisis than in previous recessions. It took us almost two and a half years to go from falling to rising debt levels during the 1990s recession, and about 15 months during the 1973 downturn. This time the switch from a falling to a rising debt ratio has taken just a year.
This is the classic “hair of the dog” cure for a hangover–avoid the consequences of drinking too much one night by getting drunk again the next morning. It worked in the 1970s and 1990s because debt levels were substantially lower than today (45% in the 1970s; 90% in the 1990s; over 150% today) and because there was another group to whom lending could occur. However, now both households and businesses are carrying record levels of debt, and businesses are still rapidly deleveraging while mortgages are the only source of rising debt. I don’t believe that the “hair of the dog” will work this third time: instead debt growth will falter once the impact of The Boost wears off, and Australia will feel the painful effects of debt-deleveraging. I expect this will renew the fall in Australian house prices that The Boost interrupted.
But that’s in the future. For the present, I will be walking to Kosciousko between April 15th and 23rd of this year.
I intend using this event as a way to highlight the absurdity of the economic situation Australia has locked itself into, where continued prosperity is dependent upon house prices forever rising faster than incomes–an outcome that is only possible if debt rises faster than both incomes and prices.
If you agree with me that this situation is absurd, then join me on the walk for an afternoon (or more).
Also consider donating to Swags for Homeless, to help make life slightly less difficult for the homeless. RP Data, who offered to give $1,000 to the charity chosen by whichever of us (myself or Rory) lost the bet, is the first corporate sponsor, and their donation will enable 16 homeless people to sleep more easily in future.


about 6 months ago
Aaron makes some good comments there.
Steve I reckon you should walk every year until you get the unemployment / house price call correct. At least then when you make these predictions you will have some punishment for getting it wrong.
Too many forecasters / economists make these outlandish predictions (for good and bad) with nothing at stake for them. In fact, they seem to get rewarded with increased media airtime.
The Storm Finance is an example of this happening the other way around.
If people are going to make these calls, which in your case scare the living daylights out of people, they need something more than their reputation on the line.
Can I look forward to your walk becoming an annual event? If so I will join you (for some of it) next year!
about 6 months ago
hello,
yes aaron, all a bit suss isnt it
its a great debate that goes on and the ones holding the title slip(s) are killing it big time man, utopia
i am one of only a handful of phrophets of society who called the run of property in Australia (word out to Kincella, Beej, Tyson, Tech)
and look forward to educating Steve on the upcoming walk
paradise brothers
thankyou
professor robots
about 6 months ago
i agree Ken, in that how the hell does a normal person afford a house the way it is going, l am working abroad in asia so l can get enough cash so l can get into the pty mkt. is yr advice to simply save yr cash and wait 10 years.
PS. l use to working in the money mkt buy/sell securitised commercail paper in late 90’s, and we were nothing but a bunch of drunken (or stoned) gamblers, macqaurie dealers are the biggest bunch of a**holes feed hot air by their economists, l hope the bubble blows above macquarie HQ and grounds these arrogrant c**nts
about 6 months ago
Can’t say that I agree with your language Martin–but only because I like to keep things civil on my blogs, so thanks for the “**”’s where you used them.
I certainly concur on my experiences with traders back in the 80s, when by chance I became a good friend with one–who now makes a more honest living as a card sharp in Las Vegas–and then spent some time advising them on software.
BTW, you left out an “*” in “a***holes”.
about 6 months ago
I have been noticing that prices in the less desirable suburbs of Sydney are already dropping (blacktown et al) – or simply not selling. I think we will back to 2008 levels very soon and then stagflation…Also data has just come in that the economy is not doing as well as they would have us believe, pay packets are not rising. The FHB have now gone – the smart ones are sitting on the sidelines – and once the vendors that sold to the FHB have all settled on their upgrades, which should wind up around April, it’s will be downhill again. It doesn’t take complex mathematical models to work this stuff out…Simple commonsense. One needs only look at all the scare mongering in the media about rising house prices to see something very fishy is going on. It’s a shame that Professor Keen has been made a mockery of by the media. But in the long run I can’t see this unsustainable scam continuing.
about 6 months ago
I can’t see it continuing either, but that’s not the point and my questions still remain unanswered by “admin”.
I can’t see ANY governemnt letting the housing market remain unchecked and accountable to itself after seeing what happened in the US. However, the US models of housing supply is to “build it and they will come” – in other words, no presales. Australian banks require presales before (if!) they’ll lend, therefore the demand side of the equation is met and the development is then funded.
Fundamental market difference using Economics 101 – Supply versus Demand.
The Aussie govt willl not let housing fail like it has in the US. Sure, repayment holidays are just rolling over debt – but the ke ingredient missing is TIME.
what happens in the TIME it takes for a 12m peypayment holiday (debt rollover) to fall due again? does the economy pick up? does someone get a job and affords to pay again?
all these models seem to not take into account the BIGGEST variables out there.
and that’s why Steven Keen was wrong.
and why he needs to admit it.
about 6 months ago
I see wages stagnating and values stagnating. On one hand we have a depressed pool of local buyers and a whole NEW pool of buyers from the emerging middle classes in Asia thanks to new foreign ownership laws.
Look at the recent Melbourne auctions – houses going for $50k+ over reserve from foreign buyers.
This will push up the medians considerably, but medians are a useless to gauge anything other than median prices.
What?
That’s right – take a suburb like Mosman Park, Perth. A mix of luxury riverfront property and flats/apartments. In the last 3 months, only one $1m luxury property sells every month and no apartments. Median value? $1m. If no $1m riverfront property sell in a month, but three $250k apartments sell, then the monthly median just went from $1m to $250k.
OH MY GOODNESSS! the sky is falling – debt levels unsustainable! they just lost 75% of the value of their luxury home! Luxury Homes sales through the floor! It’s a sign of things to come! Sell! Sell! Sell!
and there is Mr Keen’s argument – all based on Medians.
about 6 months ago
Much is made of Professor Keen being somehow wrong, or getting it wrong, or even as Aaron above has posted ‘he should admit he is wrong’. Professor Keen made an important contribution to public life by telling it how he saw it, and then backing that up with the qualitative data to prove his point. His warning concerning house prices is the same sphere as his warning concerning the GFC. He is not an investor, he is not paid to give you investment advice, one of his many jobs within academia is to contribute and inform public debate for the good of society, he has done so here in stellar style.
I have taken his warning on board to make the personal decision that I should not feel a failure for not owning/buying a house, nor should I aspire to do so before its ‘too late’. I should view it as an adult and assess my ability to afford a house, or afford rent and live accordingly. Given his warning I will not bet on a buying a house where my only ability to pay it off is related to future gains that may or may not arise. In short I should not gamble my life or happiness in the pursuit of a housing stability I simply do not require. Hopefully many other Australians have done this also.
Do I want house prices to fall or rise, no. I’m agnostic as I know to assess it by what value it will provide me relative to my current and future lifestyle. What do I mean by lifestyle here? it not latte’s and restuarants; it being able to have money to raise your children and provide for them, or to be there for a sick partner, or even to be there for yourself. Having been a child in the late 80’s I know too well the effects these things have on a family unit. I also remember the disruption of moving as a child, it is fairly inconsequential. Panic about the landlord moving you on more relates to parents than children in my view.
So if you made investment decisions based on Professor Keen’s warning of systemic problems in the housing market, good on you, especially if you are now a fully reformed gambler. If you regret that decision due to the ‘timing’ more fool you as you’ve missed the point.
Thanks Steve, hope you and many others enjoy the beautiful walk.
about 6 months ago
After watching Steve’s latest appearance on The Keiser Report I googled “steve keen’s walk”. All of the top hits were relevant. Top of the list was keenwalk.com.au
I think the walk is going to generate some publicity and hopefully policy debate. Go Steve.
about 6 months ago
James – Steven’ campaign wasn’t highlighting affordability issues. Only when he was proven wrong did the tune change.
Whilst I’m sure many people agree with you – myself included – the facts remain that Keen’s claims of 40% lower values and 10-15% UE by his nomiated timeframes didn’t come true.
and those timeframes keep moving – now 2 years out – so I guess it’s a self fulfilling prophecy if it continues.
period. end of discussion.
there is no “half right” here because he was 100% wrong.
and yet STILL can’t admit it.
anyone investing off TT / ACA “specials” needs their head read – and anyone listening to Keen’s dribble and regurgitation needs to wake up and look at the world outside their office cubicle.
about 6 months ago
My time frame was always an analogy to Japan where the decline took 10-15 years. You will not find anywhere me saying that I said any shorter time frame than that–unless you find a misquote or a second-hand restatement.
The unemployment claim was on the other hand over that time frame, so there I have been wrong in Australia, and I have said so. The size of the stimulus package and the impact of the First Home Vendors Boost prevented deleveraging, which was the motive force behind my expectations of an unemployment blowout.
The situation in the rest of the world is however in that ballpark. The best measure of actual unemployment in the USA is the U-6 statistic, which is at the 17% mark now. Even the official U-3 figure, which (from memory) counts as employed someone who has done two hours work in the previous two weeks, is at 9.7%. The situation is more severe in parts of Europe.
I suggest you take a look at Eichengreen and O’Rourke’s work on this: see http://www.voxeu.org/index.php?q=node/3421. They observe that “this is Depression level event”. That was what I and a handful of commentators were warning of prior to the GFC, and that is what has arrived in every country in the OECD except Australia.
about 6 months ago
Great site, great work and excellent ethcal sponsorhship.
Keep walking the walk and talking the talk time will tell!
I am positive you are right Steve.
TM.
about 6 months ago
hello,
and it wont arrive in Australia because this is the joint man, pure
Steve, you forecast for interest rates to head to 0% but also claim this as a prop for the resi market (ie. emergency rates) so its really no surprise what the government did during the “GFC”
personally, plenty of affordable places around and if you cant afford it then tuff, get a second job, buy in a cheaper area, rent and invest in shares if its so good
got a dollar mate? yeah the socialist way, look around in the office, sure you want the bum next to you on the same deal?
thankyou
professor robots
about 6 months ago
we’re not debating the rest of the world Steven, we’re debating Australia. changing focus again – tsk tsk!
Thank you for admitting you were wrong with regards to unemployment. You keep throwing “but’s” and “if’s” in your apologies – which as a child I was taught not to do – but I fear it’s the best I’ll get out of someone in denial.
How does deleveraging INCREASE unemployment, as per comment #38 page 3. I would have thought reducing debt would increase one’s serviceability, therefore expendable income, therefore allowing savings?
Your response just proved that Australia really IS an island in this storm-at-sea ; we survived, no one else did. How come we have the highest reserve lending rate in the ENTIRE world? and not just by a bit – by about 300%?
Japan’s economy was a one of a self protectionist story that drove it into the hole. If it WEREN’T deflationary, how do we get technology cheaper every year? Japan being deflationary actually HELPS the world progress – and being the honourable nation they are, are happy to wear it. Japan can’t be in the cr@pper because it promised a $US500bil loan to the IMF only last week – see here >
http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/survey/so/2009/NEW021309A.htm
So Japan can’t be THAT bad, can it? Lending money to an institution that helps keep the world’s reserve banks balanced….?
As for a “depression level event” – I believe it was Paul Volcker who said this was NOT a depressionist environment – you remember Volcker, yes? they guy who single handedly fixed the inflationary issues in the late 70-early 80s? The ONLY guy who got offered a third term to head the US Federal Reserve? the guy wanting to re-implement the Glass-Steagall Act 1933? the biggest regulatory reformist around?
interview here >
http://shockedinvestor.blogspot.com/2009/02/paul-volker-speech-in-toronto.html
even George Soros has said this is not a depressionist environment now.
about 6 months ago
The reason that deleveraging is associated with an economic downturn is explained in this post on Debtwatch:
http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2010/01/24/debtwatch-no-42-the-economic-case-against-bernanke/
Unemployment has a correlation coefficient with the debt-financed component of aggregate demand of -0.77 during the 1920s-1940s, and of over -0.85 in America since 1990. If you are interested in the reasons why, you will find them discussed in the above.
about 6 months ago
Prophecy, Predictions and Warnings
I prophesised the ‘name here’ road bridge would collapse on March 1st 2009. I was wrong. I deserve scorn and derision.
I predicted a ‘name here’ road bridge would collapse in less than two years due to serious structural rust. The bridge collapses in 5 years, many die. Was I wrong?, do I deserve scorn and derision?
I warn that ‘name here’ road bridge will collapse unless serious steps are taken to maintain it and repair serious structural rust. The bridge never collapses as the warnings are taken seriously. Was I wrong? do I deserve scorn and derision? Should I apologise?
about 6 months ago
RE: “I warn that ‘name here’ road bridge will collapse unless serious steps are taken to maintain it and repair serious structural rust.”
Unfortunately, Steve rarely (if ever) gave any caveats to his “depression is coming” statements. A good example is this interview (at about 8.35) : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tl_siVwCX-A
He’s pretty clear that the best Australia can expect is a recession worse than than the 90’s and lasting 1.5 times as long. Nowhere does he say “but the government may be able to delay it 2 to 5 years if they pump more money into the economy”. In fact, in most of his interviews he was expecting interest rates to get ot zero – which they are still nowhere near!
I give Steve alot of kudos though for running sites like this and doing the walk. I doubt Rory would have done the walk if he’d lost. I just wish Steve would think a bit more about what he says, and put more caveats on his predictions. People will make decisions based on his comments, whether he likes it or not.
He’s starting to sound like the boy who cried wolf. And unfortunately the wolf did turn up in the end… but by then no one was listening!!!!
about 6 months ago
That’s a fair point Brett, and I’m doing my best to temper the statements these days by alluding to the capacity of the government to counter the downturn–check this month’s debtwatch report on that front.
I did however make the case frequently that while government action could attenuate this coming recession, it could not work as previous rescues had by causing private debt growth (at greater than the rate of growth of GDP) to recommence. In fact that has been part of why the Rudd policies have succeeded to date–as you’ll see in that report. I maintain that this can’t be maintained, because the private sector is close to being debt-saturated–which was not the case in ‘74 or ‘94. That will leave government deficit financing on its own as the potential balancing act to private sector deleveraging.
about 6 months ago
Hello Steve
Just one comment about what Rory and other time warp neoclassical economists consider to be “hopelessly wrong”. Firstly they do not consider time as relevant, they think that time does not change as they “go forward” and they do claim to “go forward” ad nauseum.
I note that the time constants involved with economic changes over the last 170 years are in the order of 25 to 35 years so to win the bet you needed to be 97% accurate in time estimates. On the other hand Rory only needs a pass grade (approx 50%) to win his bet and I agree that he is bound to loose but just who is hopeless you who claimed 97% accuracy or Rory who hides behind a pass mark.
about 6 months ago
Hi Professor Keen,
Do you know if the interest rate rise today has taken the foreign investors into account? More precisely, the Chinese investors who borrowed from their country to purchase here. They borrowed heavily and outbid us in properties purchases, which has in effect, kept the property prices up. If it was not for these buyers, I don’t think the property prices could hold that well. While the RBA increase rate because of consumer spending, (and property market rising?). So does that mean us the mortgagees paying higher and higher interest rates, because of the increase in foreign investors? How does this rate increase “slow” down this property market from rising? By the way, do you really have to do that walk?? Are you doing that walk because some bearaucrat changed the law to further diminish the chance for the Australian owning their homes? How can your walk justfiy that?
about 6 months ago
I was to reinforce Henry’s point about the change of rules in foreign investment laws. Is the government servicing Australian’s or is it more focused on supporting foreign investment. it may not want foreign investors to purchase our mining assets but how is it right that they think it is okay to sell off the residential assets in a market that Australian residents can not compete as we are not able to compete with low interest funds in overseas markets. We need to walk against government policy that is encouraging and creating this bubble!
about 6 months ago
Aaron,
“How does deleveraging INCREASE unemployment, as per comment #38 page 3. I would have thought reducing debt would increase one’s serviceability, therefore expendable income, therefore allowing savings?”
If you think that changes in total private debt do not affect aggregate demand – your statement may be true.
It is not the size of stock of debt what matters in this case but the financial flow which is generated when the stock changes its size. A flow is a derivative of the stock ( flow = d(stock)/dt )
The separate flow of money generated by the interests on the debt leads to income redistribution not to the direct change in the aggregate demand (there may be some indirect effect).
If we take into account that borrowing creates new credit money which increases the aggregate demand (for example for the services provided by your company) and that repaying the debt subtracts from aggregate demand by destroying credit money – the Say’s law is violated. If in the case of debt deleveraging the aggregate demand is lower than supply – we have a recession and the prices collapse. We should distinguish between consumer goods, services and assets but let’s leave the details for now.
Just look at what is going on in the US. If aggregate demand is reduced, the productive capacity utilisation drops and as a consequence the unemployment rises.
The “solution” to the crisis in Australia was to re-start the growth of the housing bubble by doubling the First Home Owner grant.
I don’t think this is sustainable. I do not bet on the prices collapsing in 2010 but any strong external shock will trigger the same process which happened in the most of Western countries.
Please read the following article written by prof. Hudson in 2004 where he correctly predicted the dire consequences of the housing bubble in the US.
http://www.michael-hudson.com/articles/debt/0406SavingInflationDeflation.html
about 6 months ago
Was Barnaby Joyce a student of yours, Mr. Keen?
about 6 months ago
Mr Keen, I thought this was a brilliant article, thanks. I wonder if you’ve read any of Harry Dent’s theories where he uses demographics? In a nutshell, he says that there are roughly 1.8 people in the working generation replacing 2.0 people of the baby boomer generation. 10 percent or thereabouts less people in the workforce, plus migrants, how can the economy not falter? We’ve all seen what has happened in Japan, their population just happened to age earlier than ours did.
Anyway, thanks for a great article.
about 6 months ago
Thanks Dale,
Harry and I met in Sydney about a year ago and he and I are now collaborating. It’s difficult to include his analysis of demographics in mine of debt, but we believe our two approaches are complementary. You’ll see that he refers extensively to my work if you receive his newsletter.
about 6 months ago
Hi,
Just to be clear, here is the precise wording of the bet that Steve lost:
From: Rory Robertson [mailto:Rory.Robertson@macquarie.com]
Sent: Wed 3/06/2009 4:12 PM
To: Steve Keen; Christopher Joye
Subject: RE: That’s not a knife…
Steve…please check your calculations…40% drop from 131 peak is 78.6
on abs index…that’s when I would walk.
If that 131 level is regained in any period of time after a fall of less
than 20%…doesn’t touch as low as 104.8… then you have committed to
walk.
recall that down 20% to down 40% is no-man’s land…
writing “I’m willing to gamble that 131 was the peak” seems bizarre to
me…it’s a matter of fact that 131 was the peak…the obvious and only
peak that matters..we now are betting on the trough that follows…you
say 78.6 or lower, I say higher than 104.8…
talk about what might happen AFTER 131 regained short time or long time
is beside the point (perhaps “a trivial peak to peak with a minor
trough”)…
having said that…if abs or chris’s index ever falls 40% from its peak
level in 2008 – over any number of decades – I will walk…
rdgs,
rory
Aaron is right, it was unambiguous and unambiguously lost. It troughed well above 104.8 as Rory Robertson stated it would. Steve is clearly an educated and articulate professional who has already publicly acknowledged his loss to Rory and is now paying up by walking to Mt Kosciusko. I commend him for his integrity in honouring his bet.
Somehow I don’t think Steve ever stands to win his bet “part 2″ though, as it would require either Chris Joye’s (Rismark) or ABS medians to fall 40% below their 2008 peak of 131 to 78.6. Steve, are you still contending that you mean to win part two of this bet with Rory and that you anticipate the Rismark or ABS medians in nominal, not real, terms to fall to 78.6 at some point in our future despite current inflation trends? I really can’t see that happening. Or, as Aaron alludes to, have you moved the goalposts on your bet with Rory?
I was also one of the few refuting Steve’s arguments back in early 2008 and, like Steve, put my money where my mouth is. Lets just say my latest multi-unit development on Sydney’s Northern Beaches stands to make this very young 30-something Sydney-sider enough to retire on. Thankfully not everyone sold their property assets in gloom only to be priced out in boom. That’s the opposite of informed, intellectually detached investing. Bring on the 2010/11 Sydney property boom I say. Its shaping up to be a big one. Boom follows bust as night follows day. The economic cycle is alive and well.
As most other economists have already observed, BRIC nation industrialisation and their demands on Australian resources mean the Australian economy will enjoy a strong global position for the next two decades. Beyond that I make no projections. Until then, I see rising national GDP but I can’t speak for GDP per capita. But rising GDP with a fixed pool of property not being increased at the requisite rate can only support current prices in that asset category. I’m not necessarily a fan of high property prices as it creates inequality but I play the cards I am dealt. Glen Stevens is also playing the same cards and pushing against rising prices with interest rates but is limited in how much he can move by the already high cost of business lending and its impact on small business. This low interest rate environment probably still has another 12-18 months to run so the window remains open to the informed investor. Don’t say you weren’t informed.
Regards,
Michael
about 6 months ago
Mr Keen, back to the foreign investment rule changes – this is definitely having an impact on this bubble. If foreign investors continue to invest in Australia as they are we may not see a fall in prices? What are your thoughts on this?
about 6 months ago
Mr Keen,
You said in post #38
http://www.keenwalk.com.au/comment-page-3/#comment-163
” My time frame was always an analogy to Japan where the decline took 10-15 years. You will not find anywhere me saying that I said any shorter time frame than that–unless you find a misquote or a second-hand restatement.”
Yet in this article here http://www.thesydneyinstitute.com.au/ghwcContent.php?ghwcID=204
you clearly state and I quote
“It breaks my heart. But I don’t want to live my old age in poverty and there’s no point in paying a mortgage on an asset that is going to fall by 40 per cent or so in the next few years.”.
40% or so in the next few years you said, no where do I see 10 to 15 years mentioned.
Frank
about 6 months ago
thanks for the Hudson link, ak – I enjoyed that
about 6 months ago
Michael,
1. You stated that “Bring on the 2010/11 Sydney property boom I say. Its shaping up to be a big one. Boom follows bust as night follows day. The economic cycle is alive and well.”
Could you explain which economic cycle – if you are referring to the cycle described by Hyman Minsky where debt deleveraging plays a major role, at least a few more years will elapse before the next boom. What if the current “boom” is fake and has been artificially created by the overstimulation of the economy?
2. “As most other economists have already observed, BRIC nation industrialisation and their demands on Australian resources mean the Australian economy will enjoy a strong global position for the next two decades. Beyond that I make no projections.”
I would not make any projections for more than two months ahead regarding China as they have their own potential instability and the international political situation is not clear either.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/china-business/7339669/China-risks-property-bubble-as-prices-rise-20pc-a-month.html
Also – Russia (“R” in BRIC) and Brasil (“B”) aren’t interested in Australian resources at all – but this is rather a minor issue.
3. ” This low interest rate environment probably still has another 12-18 months to run so the window remains open to the informed investor. Don’t say you weren’t informed.” –
I don’t fully understand what you want to prove. If you are a speculator and want to buy a property now and sell it in a 12-18 months time – fine. You may earn but … Don’t say you weren’t informed – you can also lose. However your advice sounds exactly like the point Steve is trying to make – if investment in real estate is mainly speculative – this is a bubble! For a home buyer on a variable interest loan current low interest rates and current environment with relatively low unemployment don’t mean much. The life cycle of the loan is usually 25-30 years. Have you considered this in your advice? If I were a potential first home buyer I would stayed as far away as possible from the bubble – if it is in the late stage like our housing bubble. Investing in the bubble is good if the bubble is underdeveloped – this is how George Soros made his money.
about 6 months ago
All this talk of Australia’s resource wealth. But it still hasnt been enough to balance our consumption of cheap imports. Hence why we have been running current account deficits since 1973! Borrowing to fuel our consumption! We sell wood chips to Japan and buy them back as paper worth many times more, and that is just one example. I understand the neoclassical way is to get everything made where it is cheaper, but that has resulted in almost 40 years of continuous borrowing, which is unstainable. We cant sit back and rely on resources to produce wealth in a world where technology is advancing. Otherwise we risk becoming China’s Quarry and Dump.
about 6 months ago
If a shortage of housing is to blame for Sydney’s rising prices can somebody please explian this? from RPData:
“Ermington
Area Profile
The size of Ermington is approximately 5 km². It has 8 parks covering nearly 9% of the total area. There are 3 schools and 6 childcare centres located in Ermington. The population of Ermington in 2001 was 9,873 people. By 2006 the population was 7,684 showing a population decline of 22% in the area during that time. The predominant age group in Ermington is 40 – 49 years.
Households in Ermington are primarily couples with children and are likely to be repaying over $2000.00 per month on mortgage repayments. In general, people in Ermington work in a non-specific occupation. In 2001, 58% of the homes in Ermington were owner-occupied compared with 60% in 2006.
Currently the median sale price of houses in the area is $530,000″
22% decline in population but prices on the up???
BTW I used to live in Ermington and I can confirm the place is a dump…Not even one decent pub and no train…
about 6 months ago
ak,
I am an investor, not a speculator. I intend to hold all of my units at the completion of my current developments so that I can increase my passive income stream to fund my future retirement. However the residential property market does move in cycles so you can accelerate your long term performance by buying at the right time in the cycle. It typically stagnates for prolonged periods before spiking rapidly over a relatively short period before resting to regain its breath. In my personal opinion, we are on the cusp of one of those outperformance periods and we will see solid residential property growth in the near term before another period of resting and re-grouping as we’ve seen since the last peak on 2004. I’m particularly interested in Sydney as this is where I predominately invest and I see strong fundamentals in place for the next leg up in prices which has already played out well through 2009 with >10% price appreciation. I believe 2010 will surpass this performance and 2011/12 are shaping up to be even stronger. I agree with other economists that we can expect a Sydney median over $1M by the end of the decade. That’s not much of a stretch and very affordable.
And, on the contrary, I definately look beyond the next 2 months when considering the China impact. Even if they have boosted their economy too much, it is a cyclical issue only and will smooth out within a span of years. It is a potential concern, but there are several of these on the global stage at present. My view is that none now have the potential to dismantle the global economy and will prove to be temporary setbacks only.
I understand your argument on affordability, but I don’t believe we are in the middle of a debt fuelled asset bubble in housing despite Steve’s charts. I look at underlying affordability as outlined by the RBA when considering house prices relative to “household disposable income” and not ill informed median income multiples as used by some naysayers. Here’s some more articulate insight:
http://www.rba.gov.au/publications/bulletin/2009/dec/pdf/bu-1209-5.pdf
The section on page 40 titled “Why Are Dwelling Prices High in Australia Relative to Income?” in particular gives some good insight into why current dwelling prices are still very much affordable and not in a price bubble.
Regards,
Michael
about 5 months ago
Michael,
I think that as long as we believe in what RBA is saying – your predictions may be consistent with their estimations. However there are good reasons not to trust Ric Battelino. He is more a politician not an independent economist so he may have to make certain statements in order to achieve goals as long as his statements are at least marginally attached to the reality. The economics he uses in his analysis does not take into account the direct stimulatory effect of the growth of debt on the economy and the possibility of debt deflation. So he may think he has properly modeled the impact of the trade with China. What if a fundamental internal feedback mechanism is ignored and he has wrongly attributed internal feedback effects on external factors? This is exactly the point Steve has raised.
You have not given any explanations why you thin the house price cycle is superimposed with an exponent. If it is a cycle – one day it will revert to a long-term average. I am not an economist so I may believe less in these statements. I am asking questions – why should we observe an exponent?
My perspective is different as I am comparing our situation in Australia with what is going on in other countries. Is my relative who is a small-scale property investor in Canada happy with the market situation there? The market didn’t collapse (it’s not the US), but he is not happy at all.
What is going on in Poland where my family came from? The economy is the healthiest in the region but house prices went down more than 10 % in major cities – despite the strong fundamentals. Yes it is true that housing there is even less affordable than in Australia (so our bubble can still grow) and there is no outright collapse like in Latvia or Lithuania. But again I would be very careful when speaking about the future growth of the housing market in Central Europe.
The argument that costs of servicing loans are low may only make sense if it is true for all the significant social groups. The average doesn’t mean much. The cost of servicing my loan is indeed low but I bought one of the cheapest houses in a quite cheap suburb exactly because I did not want to be over-leveraged (I bought my house after the previous slump in 2006 when the prices reached a kind of bottom). And I cannot complain at all about our income… I don’t believe in persistent capital gains despite the fact that I have already made a modest capital gain on my house. There are groups (for example First Home Owners) who are quite overstretched. I can see this with my own eyes even in my suburb.
The same argument regarding average servicing cost was applied to the market in other countries where the collapse occurred so we should be very careful. Any increase in unemployment – and the market will lose ground. Once the lower segment of the market collapses the upper segment will have no support and will fall as well.
If you have invested in rental properties in the more expensive part of Sydney – everything depends in my opinion on the income of the people who may be interested in renting. In 2008 we have already observed signs of panic affecting bank employees. Can there be a relapse? Living there is more a lifestyle choice than a necessity. You bet on this. I wouldn’t.
I would be very careful in predicting medium prices rising to $1mln mark – unless we predict significant inflation. You need to look at the people who can service these loans – where will they earn money? Working at investment banks? Our state is not in a good shape compared with WA or Queensland.
Please consider that any major disruption – for example a bout of inflation cased by exchange rate instability (we still have a trade deficit and there is a lot of speculation with our currency – so-called carry trade takes place), a major political crisis in China or even a war in the Middle East – will inevitably trigger the same mechanism of house prices collapse which happened in any country affected by GFC. It will not be a temporary setback – just look at the dynamics in the US. There is an internal positive feedback there – George Soros wrote a lot about this. You may say that during the boom phase it is the household disposable income compared with the ongoing costs of servicing the loan what really matters but different logic is applied during the slump phase. When somebody defaults the whole loan has to be repaid. As long as the price is 2-3 annual family income – it is sort of OK, somebody will always come and but the property. But if it is 7 or 10 times the annual income? A small wave of repossessions and it’s over for the housing market which is instantly flooded.
You effectively have made a bet on the current lavish lifestyle of people living in the more expensive suburbs of Sydney (sorry for the element of irony – I work there) and on the lack of any major disturbance affecting the global markets. I cannot say for sure that you will lose but personally I would not make these assumptions.
Regards,
Adam
about 5 months ago
I am from Japan and currently live in Australia.
It gives me a strange feeling that most people around me simply believe that the property price in Australia will keep going up and will never drop. I saw there is a comment “we can expect a Sydney median over $1M by the end of the decade”. An Australian friend of mine predicts that Melbourne property median price would be over $3 million in ten years. It is really like the bubble time in my country.
My simple question is “then, who will be able to buy properties?” considering people’s income and high tax here.
By the way, we certainly had hard time soon after the bubble burst, but I believe most people there are happier now than the bubble time. Hoses are more affordable for everybody. I do not think bubble burst is that bad after all.
Cheers
HY
about 5 months ago
inflation is a very real risk at present – whereby the replacement cost for a house increases, but the land may not.
if you combine high growth AND high inlflation – a $1mil median is not too far away at all – if this scenario eventuates.
i guess time will tell, but i would rather be exposed to potential growth and realise none, than not be exposed and miss out on CG.
about 5 months ago
Steve, I know your not a financial adviser but can I have your opinion for holding cash (more than 100k) in the bank at the current time? You said something like “be liquid, get out of debt” which i am, but are there many risks holding large volumes of cash in the bank, especially if that same bank is up to its eyeballs in debt to all the people with massive mortgages?
Cheers
JT
about 5 months ago
If a crisis really does hit J, I expect that the bank deposit guarantee will be reintroduced–and it had better be. So I wouldn’t worry about the safety of the money in bank accounts. That’s not to say that there couldn’t be times when accessing it is a problem–I wouldn’t rule anything out when it comes to overnight shocks–but I think not letting bank deposits get destroyed is the one and only thing we learnt from the Great Depression.
about 5 months ago
inflation is cash’s worst nightmare – your value is eroded every day.
bank deposit guarantees are great for quelling the flock’s doubts, but in reality, if there WERE a nationwide run on the banks, the govt couldn’t guarantee every single deposit.
there just isn’t enough money in the coffers – so they’d have to print – which equals inflation.
the banks isnt in debt to us, J, we are in debt to the bank. a borderline offensively simple explanation is available on debt/money in the short films “Money as Debt” and “Money as Debt 2″. that’s a nice introduction as to how the basics tick.
about 5 months ago
“If a crisis really does hit J, I expect that the bank deposit guarantee will be reintroduced” I was under the impression the bank deposit guarantee was still in effect.
about 5 months ago
It’s recently been wound back in the belief that the crisis is over:
http://www.guaranteescheme.gov.au/
“Given the improvement in funding conditions, and the recent or imminent closure of guarantee schemes in a number of countries, the Government has announced that the Guarantee Scheme will close to new liabilities from 31 March 2010. The formal notice of the closure of the Guarantee Scheme is provided in the Notice of Final Application Date and Final Issuance Date document.”
about 5 months ago
J was referring to a 100g+ which according to the site you directed me to will still be guaranteed. Up to a million. If I’ve got that wrong, several banks I’ve spoken to recently re a term deposit have also got it wrong and have most seriously misinformed me.
about 5 months ago
That is probably correct kr–my apologies for misleading you. However it was the case before the GFC that the guarantee was implicit rather than explicitly spelt out as in the USA. And the wording is somewhat confusing there–it implies that existing $1m deposits will be guaranteed, but not new ones.
about 5 months ago
in the current climate, i would rather owe the bank a million than the bank owe me a million.
there’s no guarantee i’ll ever see it.
about 5 months ago
It would be plain foolish to believe that there will be some massive catch up any time soon in real disposable income of Australians so that they would be able to afford to buy a house in future. But if I was an ‘Investor’ looking backwards for the past couple of decades or so I might also conclude that the normal state is for prices to bounce back stronger every time. However, if recent trends continue, then I predict half the population will be living in tents or under bridges, and I am not sure that that would be a recipe for economic stability and social cohesion. People need houses. Most can no longer afford them, despite reliance on two incomes and massive mortgages, disproportional to earning capacity. Eventually the rubber band will snap back or break. This year? next year? I doubt it can go much longer – some unforseen event or events will eventually be the trigger/tipping point that will bring about the mother of corrections that has been increasingly locked in since the 1970s.
about 5 months ago
I’d be interested to hear what people think will happen to the rental market. This seems to have been largely ignored on this thread. This will obviously impact people who rent, but also self-funded retirees etc that rely on income from rentalm properties.
about 5 months ago
Any Government intervention into markets should be examined by the high court, the first home owners grant does allow a generation of Australians to buy houses but they are subject to a leveraging process that then increases the length of repayment, raises the purchase price and increases the risk of default. Its hardly fair treatment of a citizen which the constitution states must be treated fairly by the Government and its laws.
I also don’t understand why Aussies think that property prices will go up forever. The boomers have bought properties to fund the retirement (most are leveraged up to the eye balls to do so), in the hope that they will get an income and then give these assets to their children.
Who will pay for their retirement when their indebted children and their debt fueled property binge comes to end? It scares me to think what this bi-partisan government policy has really done to the future generations of Australians…
about 5 months ago
Its amazing that people think this can continue on and on, esp here in Western Australia people think we are unbreakable.
I see couples earning a decent combined wage finding it difficult to sustain a 500k mortgage. (Assume a 50k deposit so 450k debt)
at low 7% rate, over 25 years you are looking at $3200 a month…
$3200 per month is a $50,000 pa income on its own, so when we hit 8% and 9% interest then this will be 3800 or close to $60,000k salary!
Now this is JUST for the home, assume food, petrol, insurance, stamp duty, all the life necessities and you need
Lets say
$38400 <- Mortage
$1000 <- Car insurance
$1000 <- Home Insurance
$9000 <- Food
$2000 <- Council Rates
$1200 <- home insurance
(And these figures are on the low side, ie no car payment, no clothing, no power/gas/elect/phone!)
JUST to survive you need a $70,000 ++ pa single wage to even think of 450k loan!
So I can only see what will happen if/when interest rates hit 8 – 9 %…
Not to see this as a bubble would be to being absolutely blind. Really how long can the population work just to have a roof over their heads?
about 5 months ago
Don’t leave your coat behind. My mate and his son got hypothermia on Kosciosko in midsummer (one New Year’s Eve) with a change in the weather.
about 5 months ago
Thanks Ted, I had a similar experience with a girlfriend and her brother about 30 years ago–turned back by bad weather between Charlotte’s Pass and the peak. I will definitely have winter gear with me.
about 5 months ago
I pretty much agree with comment #25. Some people are doing it really tough these days and others are doing quite well. But anyone who thinks that it won’t touch them in some way have there heads in the sand.
about 5 months ago
Steve,
This site gives recent housing data for many countries around the world and names the source of data used.
Japan’s data suggests that there were price increases not decreases in the lead up to 2008.
http://www.globalpropertyguide.com/real-estate-house-prices/J
Keep up the great work.
about 5 months ago
How about the Canuck’s analysis. They don’t appear to be worried about Australia’s debt levels
http://sovins.wordpress.com/2010/03/08/rbc-sovereign-risk-heat-map/
about 4 months ago
I have changed my mind. There will be huge property slump and its coming to a suburb you live in. The baby boomers are retiring and already they just started to sell their houses to move either to country or consider retirement. The only super they have is their homes. The onslaught is starting the sooner you sell the house the better price you will get.